002 - How NLP can help you become a better facilitator - with Margreet Jacobs

In this episode, I talk to Margreet Jacobs, a master practitioner of neurolinguistic programming (NLP) and speaker’s coach. We talk about the similarities between speaking in front of an audience and hosting a workshop. How can we overcome the fear of speaking up? How can we make sure that our content resonates with the audience? How can we keep them engaged?

Margreet runs StageHeroes, a coaching agency that helps leaders to deliver talks that would change how their audience feels and acts. Margreet used to be a professional dancer and dance teacher. Today, she is a speaker herself and a constant source of wise inspiration. 

In the show, Margreet shares how speakers and facilitators can become more confident by making sure they start with the end in mind. By being clear about the purpose of a speech or a workshop, we can shift our mindset and engage our audience.   

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Subscribe to our newsletter for a free 1-page summary of each upcoming episode directly to your inbox, or explore our eBooks featuring 100-episode compilations for even more facilitation insights. Find out more: https://workshops.work/podcast

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Questions and Answers

[1:01] How did you shift from being a dancer to becoming a speaker’s coach?

[8:52] How c.an you tackle workshop participants’ fear of speaking up?

[12:00] How can we make sure that every participant is aware of their contribution?

[17:19] How does the fear of success get into our way?

[21:29] What was your “perfect failure”  in a workshop context and how did you fix it?

[23:10] How can you make sure that a workshop is giving you positive enegergy instead of draining you? 

[29:06] What can a facilitator do to create a safe space in which participants thrive?

[30:39] How can we deal with “big egos” who would not like to share their vulnerabilities?

[35:00] How can we create an anchor that workshop participants can relate to even time after the workshop?

[37:17} What is the one thing our audience shall remember from this episode?

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Related links you may want to check out:

• Margreet’s business page: https://stageheroes.nl/
• Our sponsor Session Lab 

 Connect to Margreet:

• LinkedIn 

Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:02

Do your team workshops deliver the results you hope for? What if you could keep momentum of your meetings and get everyone to follow up even weeks later? My name is Miriam Hattness, and it's my mission to help you deliver workshops that drive sustainable results. My guests are professional facilitators, trainers, and coaches with whom I discuss best practices and explore why workshops work. Mario, I'm so happy to be here with you today. Um Thanks for taking time to chat with me. You're welcome. Um about your story, about your background, and about what you're doing as an NLP master practitioner and mainly as a speakers coach. As you just told me, um, while the mic was still off. Um you used to be a dance teacher. Yes. So how did you get from being a dance teacher to being an NLP master practitioner and being a speaker's coach?

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah, that's a very interesting story, actually. So when I was 23, I started to teach dance almost full-time. So I was a salsa teacher, traveling in Europe and freelancing all over the country. And then that was that was the best thing that I could do in that moment in my life. I loved dancing. I was eating, sleeping, breathing, dance. All my friends were dancers. My my partner was also my dance partner. So that was everything. I was really in this bubble of you know, happy music and hips moving and sweaty bodies, and I really loved doing that. And I loved teaching people something new, something that they weren't able to do before. But then when I was 26, something strange happened uh in my left hip. And after a lot of um back and forth between different doctors, they realized that there was a problem in my bone. And actually, what happened is that the left uh the bone in my left hip had died inside. So I had a uh a bone necrosis, is what they call it. Um and they didn't know what the what the reason was. There was no trauma, there was no, I didn't have any heavy medical um history or medicine use or alcohol abuse. Those can sometimes be the reasons for having that, but in I was completely atypical, as they would call it. Um so I went into uh um a rehabilitation period after surgery, and it took me a full year before I could walk again. So that was a very intense period in my life, and I was 26 at the time. And before that happened, I would always say to people, you know, if I cannot dance anymore, just shoot me, my life will be over. Because this is the only thing I know how to do, the only thing I love. You know, if I cannot be part of this anymore, then why would I still be here? And then this happened, and I realized that actually I'm capable of so much more than I thought because this sort of survival mechanism kicked in, and immediately I started searching for other things to do, and a whole new world opened. I stepped out of this bubble and I realized that the sun was shining on other sides of the world too.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

So that was a very interesting period in my life, and and I started working for a software company. I I started as a project coordinator, like this sort of spider in the web of everything that was going on in the company, and I loved doing that. And I ended as a sales consultant seeing a lot of companies on the inside and seeing issues they would have with communication. So, especially if you if you sell software, you deal with the business side and you deal with the technical side of a company. And usually IT people and business people do not speak the same language. So after seven years of working there, I figured I want to I want to go back to teaching. I want to go back to teaching people new things, standing in front of a group, and I knew that going back to dance was not an option. So I started to dive in this world of nonverbal communication because I figured if if people would learn about nonverbal communication, which is the universal language, no matter if you're a tech guy or a sales guy, um, then we have then we have world peace. You know, the whole world is going to uh be in peace when people learn how to understand each other better through nonverbal communication, which is essentially what dancing is as well. I was about to say that. Yes. Yeah. So so I started diving into then that world, and then I learned about NLP, neurolinguistic programming, which has everything to do with how you're how you communicate with yourself, with the outside world, and techniques that will teach people how to be the best version of themselves by learning how to be how the brain works and sometimes bypassing all these systems that are holding us back from becoming who we want to be. And as I was learning about nonverbal communication and about NLP, people in my network started to come up to me and they would say, I have a presentation to do, but what do I do with my arms? Because all of a sudden, people become so conscious of these hands and arms and how they stand because they're in front of an audience. And in NLP, I had learned how to deal with certain fears and how to uh overcome those, and also how to be a good public speaker. And then all of a sudden, it was like all these pieces of the puzzle just fell into place, and I went into speaker coaching. So I started to coach speakers for TEDx, which I loved doing. It was amazing to work with people that are trying to fit their whole life's work into eight minutes. Yes, it's a it's an amazing challenge, and also you know, also these people deal with fears of you know that one moment that needs to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yes. Especially when the brand TEDx is on your forehead.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Exactly. And there's there's so much pressure because people feel like, yeah, TEDx is something you do maybe once, if you're lucky twice in a lifetime. Yeah. And it's and it's recorded. So if you if you mess up, then you mess up this amazing opportunity you have to show yourself. So, how did you get these people over their fear? What is the trick? Well, there's not one trick, let me let me say that, because fear comes from different places and different people. So some people might have had a trauma when they were 10 speaking in front of their classroom for the first time, having a blackout being laughed at, or something like that. Um, but also other people have just this natural fear of public speaking, which is very normal because our brain is programmed to be one of a group. You know, us humans, we want to be in a group because that's how we survive. So when we pull ourselves out of that group and onto a stage, for example, our our fight or flight mode kicks in because it recognizes that scene as um as a threat. So, first of all, I would explain that to people, and and once people realize that they're perfectly normal to be afraid, that already lifts so much weight of people's shoulder. I believe, yeah. Yes. And and another thing that is very important that often helps people to go past that fear is to focus on the purpose. So often when people do a presentation or they do TED Talk, they focus on the what. What am I gonna say? When am I gonna send? And once you pull them out of this what and pull them into this why, and I'm sure you've everyone. Simon Senek. Simon Senek, exactly. What is the purpose? Do you want to change the world with your TED talk? Do you want to inspire people? What is the present you're giving to your audience? So focus on what you try to accomplish instead of what it is that you're actually about to do. And by looking further than just this one presentation, all of a sudden this moment, this speaking moment, becomes a tool to accomplish something rather than a goal in itself.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

And it also helps you to be more authentic because you know why you're standing there and why you're talking about the content that you want to deliver. Absolutely. I have one question. You just um mentioned that from our brain we're group people. Yes. I can relate to that. Um, and that's why it takes a lot of the fear away when a single person speaks, um, or the fear away of being afraid. Yes. That's how you put it. Why is it then that in workshops many or in groups, many people still feel the fear of not expressing themselves? Can you also tackle that?

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Yeah, so this has to do with the fear of rejection because we are group people, but once we expose ourselves or we show who we really are, we're afraid of other people rejecting us. Oh, they might find this stupid, or they might find me dumb, or this question will probably sound stupid, which is why I won't ask it. Because when we're rejected by the group, also we stand on our own. And this is we want to be liked by other people because our innate need to connect to people. So expressing yourself, asking questions, showing who you really are, taking space, taking space is super scary, and this is why a lot of people won't do it.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

So, what can you do? What did you maybe learn from NLP to provide this safe space for individuals or even groups to speak up?

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah, so what is important is that what I always do in my in my group trainings is first I force everyone to speak up in the first hour. So I ask everyone a direct question just for them. So everyone will be sort of forced to take space. So we already get over that little hurdle. And then I also uh show that there is a lot of similarities. So I ask people, okay, so why are you here? And the first person will say, Well, I would like to have a little bit more confidence because I'm quite nervous. And then I look at the rest of the group, I said, Who recognizes this? And people really feel seen because they see, oh, I'm afraid, but so are the other 10 people in this room. So you already create this, we're all struggling with the same things, we all want to learn the same things. So that's where people already start to feel more free to express themselves. And then I'll tell them that's the only way for them to learn something that day is by stretching their comfort zone and by really opening up and showing vulnerability because that's where we learn. And if they don't have an intent on doing that, they might as well leave because it will be a day wasted. So I talk a little bit about the fear of you know wasting our time because time is so precious. And everyone wants to learn, everyone wants to grow, and the only way to do that is by stretching that comfort zone. So I put this little stretch anchor, I give people an elastic and I show them if this is your comfort zone, the only way to expand it is to stretch it very far. And throughout the course of the day, whenever I see someone is holding back, I just show them this little elastic and I stretch it in front of their eyes, and they'll know, ah, yeah, I I came here to stretch, I came here to learn.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Nice. So you kind of develop your special lingo in this course that everyone can also refer to. Yes. I like that. I also like the way how you connect every individual to their why, that actually there's a specific purpose for them being there. Yes, and if they don't see this purpose, maybe it's a waste of time. And I think the same applies to any workshop.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Because if you're sitting there not contributing, you're actually wasting your time.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Absolutely. And and in my case, there's a double layer because I explained to them that once you do a presentation, the first thing you need to do is to make your audience understand why they are there, why what you have to say is important for them, what is in it for them in the long run. So this is what I'm doing at the beginning. I'm showing them I need you all to understand why you're here, because that's the only way you'll give 100%. Yeah. And that's what you need to do for your audience once you're speaking. It's the only way they'll pay attention towards the end. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

And I wonder, so you um you coach individuals and you coach groups. Yes. And for me, public speaking, and you mentioned that, is all about anxiety, it's about exposure, it's um about discomfort. Yes. So they're basically exposing themselves towards you and also towards the group. Do you see a difference or do you approach your coaching differently, whether you're working with an individual or with a group?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

So when I'm working with an individual, of course we go deeper into the depth of the matter. So we immediately find out what is holding a person back from speaking in public. Because there's always there's always multiple reasons. So we can go a little bit deeper. But even when I'm working one-to-one with person with people, I will make them go in front of an audience through the throughout the course that we're working together. Because in the end, the only way to learn how to be a better public speaker is to do it. Um, so at this moment I'm researching as well this um tool uh to use virtual reality. So where people put put on this uh this mask and then it will seem like they are in front of an audience, and this is where the brain is such an amazing instrument because it's so smart, but yet it does not understand the difference between what's real and what's not. So when people would put these goggles on and they have a hundred people in the audience, their heartbeat would rise, they would start to speak faster, they get sweaty palms just as if it was real. That is so interesting. Yeah, it is. It's amazing. Fantastic tool. It is, it is. The only thing for me as a coach is when they speak in front of an audience with this big goggles, is it's a lot more difficult for them to coach them because, first of all, I'm not in the room with them because they won't see me, and secondly, I cannot see their eyes, I cannot see a big part of their facial expression.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

And the entire body language that you mentioned before gets lost because they're focusing on this virtual reality. Exactly. So there is pros and cons for this approach. Okay. How do you help your coaches to find the real why?

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Well, I asked them. It's a good first step. So I asked them why do you want to be a public speaker? What about your message is important? And I do this by this um uh I'm sure you know uh Covey's um seven habits of highly effective people, and one of that is start with the end in mind. So I would say, let's start with the end in mind. You do your presentation or TED Talk, whatever it is, and afterwards there is a journalist going to ask a few of the people that were in your presentation what they thought. What do you want this person to say? What do you want this person to mention? Now, the purpose of a presentation is always a change. You want to change the way people think, or you want to change the people, the way uh the way people behave, or both often. So, what is the behavior you want to change? What is the way of thinking you want to change? And why is that important? So, you you know, sometimes you ask two questions and you get to the why, and sometimes you need to ask five questions, but why is that the purpose? But why is that important? But why is that important? Yeah, sometimes you need to dig a little deeper, but you always you always get there. Nobody says, I want to be a public speaker because I want to be in the spotlight. Because then you might become a singer or an actress.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

And then the question is why do you want to be in the spotlight? Exactly. Yeah, what is it giving you? Why should someone pay for being for seeing you in the spotlight? Yes, yeah. Yeah, and what is the need that it is fulfilling for you? Yeah. It's actually funny that you um that you're working with a method of having the end in mind and having the positive end in mind. So, okay, if you're interviewing journalists, what do you want them to say? Yeah. And I often use in my workshops actually the exact opposite, which is a pre-mortem. Yes. So I asked them to imagine that uh the perfect failure. So imagine that you get fired or your team gets dissolved. What happened? Yeah. Um, and then to let them brainstorm on everything that needs to happen to make it a perfect fail.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Because then it also takes the fear away and makes the brain kind of more creative. Yes, I love that. Yeah. I think that's a very interesting approach. It just uh reminded me of that uh to turn it around. Um if you get stuck, because I think it's a question also of creativity or maybe fear of success.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's and it's also when it comes to presenting, um you you wanna prepare for when stuff goes wrong, not if stuff goes wrong, because stuff goes wrong all the time. If you just Google presentation fails by you know great speakers like Barack Obama or Bill Clinton or Steve Jobs, they are there. You know, the technique fails, the teleprompter shuts off, uh you know, a light stops working, or you have a blackout. So, what is important is to prepare for when that happens, what do I do instead of oh, I just hope I don't get a blackout. Because you're gonna have a blackout. If you speak often, you'll have a blackout. I mean, even when you're just one-to-one in a conversation with a person, you have these moments of, what was I gonna say? I I totally forgot what I was saying. And this is is gonna happen eventually on stage. So it's about owning that and knowing what to do when it happens.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

So now that you're mentioning it, and it happens to me in workshops that I'm totally focused and then I just lose it. Yes, and I cannot find it back. What is your coping strategy when it happens to you?

SPEAKER_02 18:36

So, first of all, often I would just ask people, so where was I again? Who can remind me? And it's also a nice test to see if people were actually paying attention. But one thing that you can do or that you have to do whenever you get a blackout on stage when you're doing a presentation, is move the body. Because a blackout is often like a brain freeze, you know. And when we when the brain freezes, the body freezes too. So by unfreezing the body, for example, like to wiggle your toes, because they're the furthest away from your brain. So you wiggle your toes or take a walk across the stage or take a zip of water, by unfreezing the body, the brain will also unfreeze and it will come back to you because it's not like that knowledge is lost, it's just you cannot reach it in that second. And stay calm, don't panic. It's normal. And a silence always lasts 10 times as long in your head as it does to the audience. So know that, you know, it's fine to be silent for three, four, or five seconds. Nobody is gonna think anything of it. So yeah, those are the so move the body. It's the only thing I can tell you to do, and it will guarantee you to get for your your your train of thought to come back.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Before we continue the show, let me take a brief moment to thank our sponsor, Session Lab. Session Lab.com is an online agenda planning tool that helps me to keep all I need for my workshop planning in one place. The agenda, exercise descriptions, material shopping lists, and all of the templates. No more struggles with Excel for every agenda update or last-minute changes in the schedule. Session Lab offers an easy-to-use drag and drop agenda builder, a color scheme that gives me an immediate feel on the balance of activities, and the option to share a branded document with my clients. And whenever I need inspiration for new exercises or variations, I check the abundant database with hands-on tips and tricks. Or I dive into the Session Lab blog for which I have already contributed myself. So if you are looking for a smooth way to prepare a workshop or meeting agenda that not only looks amazing but also professional, sign up for Session Lab. I use it myself and I wouldn't recommend it if I didn't believe in its value. So our audience are mostly team leaders, managers, or also trainers or coaches who want to deliver better workshops. And I think we learn a lot from failure or from things that went wrong. So this one time I did have a blackout. What did I do? So can you imagine or can you think of a scene you working with a group, something went wrong, and how you fixed it?

SPEAKER_02 21:28

Um well I've had, especially when I just started doing my trainings, the mistake I made was I was working way too hard. So I was giving energy and I was sending and sending and sending and hoping to get my audience to you know participate with me. And I was exhausted at the end of the day. I could not do two of those workshops a week because I would completely exhaust. Myself. So connect to your audience in right from the start and let them know that they are there to work. It's a workshop for them, and you're just there to facilitate. So that would be not necessarily one moment, but especially in the beginning, that is where I went wrong to just give too much energy and not get the same amount back.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

I love the example, and I can totally relate to that. And I realized in one of my early prototype sessions that there were groups and there were sessions where I felt so drained afterwards that I was totally exhausted, as you explained. And also this helped me to figure out with whom I actually want to work and what I want to do because it helped me identify what I'm actually gaining energy on. And I realize now that working with the group, I feel after a good workshop, I feel more energized walking out than when I walked in. And I can perfectly pinpoint the identifiers for me to trigger this kind of feeling. What is it for you?

SPEAKER_02 23:10

I've come to realize that when you give too much, people will automatically go into relaxed mode. Because we are humans are like magnets, you know. But when one person gives, the other person starts to move a little bit back and go into relaxed mode, and like, oh, I'm just passively receiving. So the less you give, the more your audience will tend to lean forward and and want to move with you and fill the space. And fill the space, exactly. So when I stop talking, you are very likely to start talking because there is this empty space. So by filling all the space, you also sort of push your audience away because they go into this passive mode. So just trigger their brain with one question or one sentence, and then just be silent and wait. What is your favorite question to ask? That's a good question. Um, this is an interesting one. This is this is usually a shocker for people. I love shockers. So in the beginning of my workshop, I always ask, well, not always, but most of the time, ask people, what kind of beliefs do you have that are preventing you from being a good speaker? So in some case, that might be a few months ago, I had this girl who said, Yeah, I believe that people always want to be in the spotlight are not very nice people.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Mmm, self-judgment. We love that.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

So so I would ask, then I would ask the group. So if she continues to believe that, is she ever going to be a good public speaker? No matter how many skills I teach her, she's never gonna be a good speaker if she doesn't let go of that belief. So my next question would be what need do you have that is being fulfilled by maintaining this belief? So people always think, oh yeah, I have this negative belief of I'm not good enough. Like a lot of people have them. And then I ask them, what need are you fulfilling by by hanging on to that belief? And all of a sudden people feel a little bit attacked because they're like, Yeah, but I don't want to have that belief, I just have it, but I don't want to. Yeah, but there is a part of you that does, otherwise, you wouldn't have it. And this is this is kind of a shocker for people. Or in the case of that lady who says, Um, I people who want to be in the spotlight are not very nice people, I would provoke her a little bit by asking, what kind of person does that make you? What kind of person believes that? That that sounds like a very judgy person, right? So I would be a little bit like like poking and giving her an identity that she doesn't want. For example, she doesn't want to be a judgy person, but I would link that particular belief that she has to her being a judgy person, and that will give her the intrinsic motivation to let go of a belief.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yes, and this other protective instinct that put the belief in her mind in the first stage.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yeah, you'll have to feed it in another way, you'll have to find another way to give yourself that protection. And and that is magic what happens when that finally clicks. But the the the the thing with belief systems, with when they're whether they're helping beliefs or uh beliefs that are holding them back, they can only kill it from the inside out. It's like it's like a chick that comes out of its shell, it can only break out from the inside out. You cannot force someone to stop believing something. Nothing from the outside can do that. All you can do is trigger things that is gonna cause that person to start doubting whether or not that belief is still right for them.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

And it makes total sense because if I try to force you to give up a belief, I'm attacking your kind of survival mode, your basic um your identity. Yes, and if I'm attacking your identity, your basic instincts come back, yeah, and you go on survival mode, you cannot even listen. Even if you want it, you cannot listen to the arguments.

SPEAKER_02 27:37

Yes, so there's no way to argue or to change someone, and a belief is something that you never you never change by arguments, you know. Us humans, we are not as rational as we like to think, so we are not convinced by arguments ever. Yeah, so you want to trigger those parts of the brain that are uh ruled by emotions that are, which is for example, this person in this case, by saying to her, uh, well, that you must you must be a very judgy person, and she's like, No, I'm not. So perfectly. So instead of me telling her, you need to stop believing that, it's herself that eventually is gonna tell her, I want to stop believing that.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Yeah, by showing her the mirror. Yes. I like this very much. Thank you for sharing it. You're welcome. When I think of a facilitator of workshops, um, it's someone who carries a lot of responsibility. So it's their job to create the safe space to make all these people overcome their fears of being rejected, of saying stupid things. They want to bring forth the most creative, the smartest part of all these participants. What can they do? What is the one trick, maybe how they can they trick themselves? What did you learn at NLP or through your experience? That's an easy one.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Oh it's only two words. Go first. So go first. Show your own vulnerability first. Show what you're struggling with, show your genuine um ideas of what you would love to accomplish with the people and tell them why. Tell something that is very vulnerable about yourself, go first. Because if you open up, then you will inspire the others to do that too. If you walk in as an outsider, like, okay, now you guys are gonna have to open up to me without you doing that yourself, you're gonna have a hell of a job. But when you walk in and you're not afraid to be authentic, not afraid to show your naked soul or whatever word you want to use for that, and and really share what your worries are, what your struggles are, what you would love to accomplish, and why that is important to you. And check with the other people if they agree, if they are with you on board towards that goal, then you're gonna have a piece of cake.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

And now I imagine this happening in one of these very masculine environments where everyone sits around a table in ties and suits, and then the boss walks in and says, I am very scared today to facilitate this workshop. I am not sure whether everyone would buy in and share this vulnerability.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Well, I am because I believe that you know this suit and tie, it's an armor. It's an armor we put on before we go on to we go to work, and then we put our work face on, and we are our working person, which is in some cases not the same person as our real person. So the first thing you could do is when you facilitate when you are a boss and you want to facilitate a workshop with your with your whole C-suite of people, for example, tell them dress coat, no suit and ties. Just have them come in jeans. Go to this is why people go off site, you know, wear jeans and sweaters or whatever it is that you feel comfortable in. This already removes that physical armor, and then just go in with a bold statement. For example, you can come in and say, the only way we're gonna accomplish something today is if we truly open up with each other. If we show something that we haven't shown each other before, and if we really um share the things we are afraid of, maybe we can help each other, share the things that we're proud of, maybe we can uh compliment each other, you know, just whatever it is that you're you think your team needs. But even a very masculine society, even men have a heart, even men have feelings, even hopefully, luckily. Yeah, I mean, if I if I have learned something is that whoever I work with when it comes to presenting, whether that's a CEO of a massive company or an entrepreneur who's just getting started, everyone has a sense of fear of public speaking. Because everyone feels everyone wants to be liked, everyone wants to be accepted by others, every person they'll ever meet wants to be seen and heard by others. So if you show that, you walk into the group and you say, I see what you are struggling with, I see what is going on, and I'm genuinely interested in hearing what the problems are, but it has to come from a genuine place. If it's fake, people will see right through it and you're not getting anywhere. You have to go first. If you want people to open up, you have to go first, otherwise, it never happens.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

That's why I like um the check-in routines where everyone just answers a question or says something. As you said, you want everyone to say to speak up in the first hour and also to participate in it myself. Yes, because it just makes me as one part of the group and sit in the same boat for the remaining workshops. Yes. And I like what you said about putting off the armor, so change the dress code if you're working with your usual team, yes. Um, if you cannot change the entire setting, yes, and go offside.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Yeah, because also that suit is an anchor. In in NLP, we work a lot with anchors. So, for an anchor, for example, is you smell apple pie and you go back to being five years old sitting at your grandma's kitchen table because she used to make apple pie, or you hear a song and you go back to that summer of 1997 where you were madly in love for the first time in your life. Those are anchors. There's something that happens, something that triggers, and it brings you back to a certain feeling. A suit is an anchor. Whenever we put on a suit, we feel different. I we are women. When I put on a fancy dress with high heels and I put makeup on, I feel different as when I'm walking around in my pajamas. So, because every time you put on that uh outfit, something is about to happen, or you you feel different. So when you put on a casual outfit, you already go more into casual mode because the casual outfit is an anchor for letting loose, for not having this armor, for not having this wall up, because that's usually what you would wear with your family, for example.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

And I, if I push the idea of the anchor a bit further, I can even imagine that it's a nice way to help follow through the workshop results that you agree as a group to create an anchor of something like something tangible that you can then take away, and every time you look at it, you will be reminded of this workshop and what you have agreed with. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

It's like the elastic I just explained. The elastic becomes an anchor for stretching your comfort zone. But I also use high fives. So after everyone's presentation, so I ask people to go in front of the group and speak. Afterwards, I ask all of them to high five every single member of the group. That's fantastic. Now, firstly, this raises the energy because everyone is, you know, moving their bodies. But secondly, a high five is a positive anchor. No one has ever received a high five in their lives in a moment they were down. You know, we don't go like, oh, I'm sorry your dog died. High five. We don't do that. You know, so high five is always like, well done, great job. Hi, good to see you, you know. So high five is already a positive anchor. So by combining the activity of standing in front of the group, followed by this positive anchor 10 times, you link these two in your brain. Hey, presenting is something positive because it's followed up by a positive anchor. So I see groups of people that have had my training months after, whenever something cool happens, they start high-fiving each other because all of a sudden this becomes you know a new, a new positive thing for them to do. Nice. So you can use existing anchors that are universal.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah. Yeah, I will definitely try that next year. Yes, creating anchors.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yes. However, it's cultural because last month I had two guys from Russia in my training and they don't do high fives. Oh. So for them, it was not a negative thing. They were fine high-fiving, but it didn't trigger the same feeling as it would in other people that grow up in high-fiving societies, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Okay, so a little bit of cultural research. Yes, absolutely. Before high fiving. Yes. Nice. Yeah, but uh definitely the idea of creating a anchor, something tactile. Um, I like that. I will definitely try it. Very powerful. Cool. Before where we're going to the end, if there's one thing you want the audience to remember from this conversation or something they should know, must know, I don't like should must know before this episode ends. What is it?

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Well, I would like to say focus on the bigger picture, keep on doing that. Whenever, whether it's a small business pitch or a big presentation or a workshop that you're facilitating, focus on the bigger picture. What are you trying to accomplish and connect to that before you go in? And then you cannot go wrong.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 37:40

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

And before closing, if now our audience believes that they want speakers code or your advice on how to be more confident speaking up, talking up, um, how can they reach you?

SPEAKER_02 37:57

They can reach me at presentive with a v at the end dot n L. So how do you spell that? P-R-P-R-E-S-E-N-T-I-V dot n L or slash E N if you're English speaking.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Good, and we'll definitely put them in the speakers notes uh in the episodes notes. I'm all into speaking now in the episode notes. Anyway, thank you. Bye bye. Bye bye. Hey, thank you for staying tuned and listening to the show. I know that your time is scarce, and I appreciate your attention. So if you enjoyed the show, subscribe and engage by sharing your comments and thoughts.